Another early Graph

[Joe_A]

question for the board. What is the deal with the mk1a with the tan subdials, was that how someone restored it or did the mk1a come with that kind of dial. i only know of the grey, black. Are those tan sub dials original? So let say a perfect mk1a is worth 25k. I am going to guess that this watch will cost 3-$k to clean up, and service so it looks the best that it can, and then after that it might be worth 14-15k to the right buyer, hence my estimate for the sale on ebay at 10-11k. Buyer must be an optimist and ready to do some work on the watch.... this one is not for me.

Actually, as far as I am aware, there are no Mark Ia watches with tan subdials and I doubt we'll actually see any with tan dials as well, not "in the flesh" anyway.

Here is my watch as it appeared on the Bukowski's auction site:



Here is the same watch as it appears on Nico's Enicar 101 site:



And here it is in my possession as seen in my icon at the left:



As shown in my earlier post, the subdials are actually more of a pearlescent creamy off-white, referred to as pearlescent because they have a metallic sheen as well.




The lighting plays a huge role, and I have yet to take a photo of one of my own watches where the photo looks just like what I am seeing with my old naked eyes.

Here's another similar watch sold by Bulang and Sons a couple years ago which temporarily convinced me that there may have been a tan-dialed version of the IA:



I'm now convinced that the dial and subdials of this watch (but not the hands) are the same color as my Ohrelius watch:

Here they are as photographed by Bulang, left and Bukoski's right a couple years and miles apart:



The one dial color on the right is not tan and I'd bet neither is the one on the left.

The color is a semi-metallic pewter gray with just a hint of brown in it as is the case for pewter.

Here's another Mark Ia which is pretty close in coloration to what you'd see "in the flesh" but I would wager that the photo should be adjusted to remove some of the blue effect . . .



if you look at the tachy ring and the stainless, you can easily see the photo has too much blue in it. Now let me adjust it as I think it should look:



I can't completely compensate for the light sources, but this is close to reality.

 

[SteveHarris]

I do need to disagree on sub-dials Joe

Picture of one of mine:-


All perfectly correct according to Nico (I did have to check!) and it's not the only one that has aged this way. Why has it aged like that? Not sure. My guess was it was owned by a smoker but according to my watchmaker it doesn't smell of Nicotine

 

[Joe_A]

That's not tan; that's yellow !!!!

OK, the only other one that I have seen in a similar color is the one that Nico had commented was adulterated, the one on the Vintageur site:



According to Nico, this one has been colorized, but not by anyone as talented as those who colorized "Angels with Dirty Faces" or "Arsenic and Old Lace."

I stand corrected that there are dials where the color of the subdials may have naturally aged to a yellow color.

Good discussion.

 

[HorologyBiology]

The level of anal in this thread has got wayyyyyyy out of control lol

 

[JimJupiter]

Nicotine would be my guess too. Have seen this on several other watches of other brands.

Mine is just like Joes:

 

[SteveHarris]

It definitely isn't smoke damage as it would have a lingering smell still. Also the rest of the dial would take some damage I'd imagine as well as gumming up the movement. Also, these are waterproof cases, so I highly doubt smoke particles would get in there.

 

[HorologyBiology]

I find it very hard to accept that this is smoke damage, Getting in through a sealed crystal. I think people just have to accept that its impossible to know everything about the brand we love and that some things we just still don't know!

 

[JimJupiter]

That's not tan; that's yellow !!!!

OK, the only other one that I have seen in a similar color is the one that Nico had commented was adulterated, the one on the Vintageur site:

View attachment 5481

According to Nico, this one has been colorized, but not by anyone as talented as those who colorized "Angels with Dirty Faces" or "Arsenic and Old Lace."

I stand corrected that there are dials where the color of the subdials may have naturally aged to a yellow color.

Good discussion.

yes, like I said in another threat, this watch was massively worked on. On this comparison pic, you also see that the yellow is not that much yellow (or wasnt? ). Also the lume on the original looks terrible, which would support my theory that some kind of external influence made this discoloration.



@SteveHarris your watch was also lumed, wasnt it? so maybe also some kind of external effect on both, but the lume could be changed, the dial color not.

 

[HorologyBiology]

yes, like I said in another threat, this watch was massively worked on. On this comparison pic, you also see that the yellow is not that much yellow (or wasnt? ). Also the lume on the original looks terrible, which would support my theory that some kind of external influence made this discoloration.

View attachment 5483

@SteveHarris your watch was also lumed, wasnt it? so maybe also some kind of external effect on both, but the lume could be changed, the dial color not.

Nico,

I totally agree this is the same watch but the photos have massive lighting differences hence why the subs are different in colour. Even the case looks a different colour.

 

[SteveHarris]

I just really doubt that smoke particles could get in to a EPSA case watch. As I said as well, there is no smell. The smell of Nicotine doesn't disappear with time, it just tends to get worse .

Also wouldn't it affect the font colour in some way on the sub-dials and leave some other damage elsewhere? Nicotine itself is a greasy substance, so I would expect some damage all over really. I'm just not buying that it affected the sub-dials and that's it

 

[JimJupiter]

I find it very hard to accept that this is smoke damage, Getting in through a sealed crystal. I think people just have to accept that its impossible to know everything about the brand we love and that some things we just still don't know!

Ok, let me try something else, since we know this effects on these old paints from other brands. Have a look at these two Monacos:



both were born blue, whereas the left lost all its (blue) color. Have a look at all markers, which are still intact and there. The theory with this blue laquers is, that they react with UV-light ( to much sun so to speak). Probably we see the same here with the Graph. But I highly doubt it came yellow out of the factory. That would contradict the early 60s design philosophy of chronographs. But again, just my opinion. And to me, it doesnt make the watch less attractive. Especially with the matching lume it looks awesome!

 

[SteveHarris]

I don't think it came out of the factory yellow either if I had to guess (which is exactly what we're doing ) There's definitely some aging process involved I think. Perhaps it is too much sunlight

 

[JimJupiter]

Btw why are we discussing yellow subs? The subs of the Ebay watch are absolutly fine

 

[SteveHarris]

The only other issue with the aging theory (or smoke even) is that the yellow on the sub-dials is quite uniform. You would expect some variation really.

 

[Joe_A]

What a bunch of nerds!

 

[SteveHarris]

Btw why are we discussing yellow subs? The subs of the Ebay watch are absolutly fine

We seem to have taken a de-tour

 

[HorologyBiology]

It's interesting that we only seem to see these subs on the MK1's tho... why not on a MKIV?

Also, no disrespect but that Heuer looks fire damaged. Look at the black build up in the corners and the wave of high smoke damage across the hands.

 

[JimJupiter]

to totally flash you, the golden MK1a :


@Matt: I would agree, but its just an example. Look at pics of Omega Seamaster chronos with blue dials from the 60s and 70s and you see the same effect. Since a MK IV has a totally different dial, I think we cant compare that. Would be interesting to see if there are MK1b examples with that effect. I will have a look into my files

edit: small remark to the MK1b Mk1a comparison. The MK1a sub had, like Joe also pointed out, a more white glossy color. the MK1b had matte white or true silver subs. So here a comparison is also difficult. Maybe thats the reason they changed the dials after 500? Who knows...

 

[JimJupiter]

I guess here we have a heavy smoker example. so I would agree with you, the subs on the bespoken MK1a's are not the product of Nicotine. Would effekt the bezel too and doesnt look that even.

 

[Joe_A]

That Mark Id or Mark IIa watch above seems to have recovered from yellow fever!

Levity aside, the Mark Ia dial also uses a different metal alloy for the hour markers and the Enicar logo compared with the later Mark I watches. The later markers and logo look reflective silver in color from most angles whereas the Mark Ia markers and logo look shiny black from many angles - a bit like a higher carbon steel may look.

I guess the yellow subdials seen on a couple of the Mark Ia watches will remain a mystery for now.