Another early Graph

[mgernhar]

The movement should be a high concern if it is supposed to be correct. The early Graph val 72's had different balance wheels and non moveable stud holders. Also no AR on the mainplate I believe.

Given the sellers history, description and what else they are selling I think this is legit and its another case of they know they have something but they don't fully know what they have

The dial looks pretty good as the scratches blatantly look like crystal scratches as they move in different pics.
I wouldn't be even bothered about the lume as there are a few professional people out there that will do a relume that good and vintage looking that you would never be able to tell the difference. Fact.

Even the pusher is doable. The crown however is the most problematic finding the right size without the

But after saying all of this it's eBay. So it's try before you buy! As much as this disgusts me we all know eBay would side with the buyer in any situation.

I think it goes for between 10:00 and 11,000 and it's probably going to cost easily $3, 000 to get it serviced and get a new Crystal and and things that it needs and by then it's up to 14 Grand and that's about what it was sell for on the market in good shape maybe a little more if you got a bidding war this this would need to be a labor of love it's definitely not a slam dunk and honestly feel free to disagree but I see the watch Market getting softer in the last 3 months and even softer latelyp

 

[Enicar1984]

3 k for a Service and plexi? Not even the big brands are taking that for their Vintage stuff (Most of the Times). You should change your watchmaker for sure
Nice watch. With a new plexi it Will rock!
Cheers,
Matthias

 

[HorologyBiology]

3 k for a Service and plexi? Not even the big brands are taking that for their Vintage stuff (Most of the Times). You should change your watchmaker for sure
Nice watch. With a new plexi it Will rock!
Cheers,
Matthias

I was also thinking this

 

[mgernhar]

Look at the dial real close it's discolored I don't know how you fix that without really I don't know how you do that I'm not an expert watchmaker but my senses this thing is not a slam dunk and that it needs a fair amount of work

 

[JimJupiter]

I would call that patina and not damage. I think we agree it’s not a watch in the league of Joes, but still it’s a rare, undamaged watch. We will see in a week where it ends

Btw, if I can wish for something, it would be punctuation. For me as non native English speaker it’s hard to follow your postings @mgernhar . Thanks!

 

[mgernhar]

I would call that patina and not damage. I think we agree it’s not a watch in the league of Joes, but still it’s a rare, undamaged watch. We will see in a week where it ends

Btw, if I can wish for something, it would be punctuation. For me as non native English speaker it’s hard to follow your postings @mgernhar . Thanks!

Sorry Jim, most of the time I am dictating into my phone, because the keyboard is too small for me to type. The phone does a really bad job of dictation and frequently butchers it up so bad I cant even make sense of it. I will try to type my responses from now on.
I think its a nice watch. I was considering bidding on it, but I think I have enough watches for the moment. I look at watches as a blending of art, engineering and human factors, and really appreciate when a watch is well done. I have assumed that the enicars and aquastars i have collected would be at least decent investments that I could enjoy, kind of like a materialization of money.
I am observing from watching the listings for several years that this is not a highly liquid market, and that to sell a watch it needs to be in excellent condition and priced correctly. My triangulation of the watches that have sold would be that this watch will go for 10-11,000 dollars.
I think that the market for excellent condition Mk3's would be 8500-9000 dollars, excellent condition mk 2's maybe 8000 dollars. I don't know what the fees are i on ebay or C24, I would guess that its at least 10% which means that if you buy a watch off ebay or C24, you would have to hold it for quite some time to actually get what you paid for it. My sense is that we are heading toward a deep recession ( with the set up of quantitative tightening, US debt at 125% of GDP, and inflation probably at a steady state of 6-7%), unlike any we have seen so far. I think that portends a softening of the watch market in the next few years, with more and more watches coming on the market. I am only musing out loud and could be wrong on all points. Feel free to disagree..

 

[Joe_A]

I can agree completely with the content of the first paragraph . . . and I like that it is a paragraph.

The issue with any watch that is not Rolex or Omega or other heavily marketed brand still in production, is that these lesser recognized brands are not very liquid. The total available market is small or narrow. Relatively speaking, there are only a handful of people who fully appreciate them and will pay a significant amount of money for them.

Put up certain references of vintage Daytona for sale at over $50K and they get snapped up - or at least have been getting snapped up relatively quickly even in a 36 mm size.

I've no idea what is going to happen to the watch market.

Martijn's book likely helps prop up pricing for vintage Enicar watches as does Nico's site. Articles like whet we see at Fratello help as well.

Rolex doesn't need support from anyone other than Rolex.

The Swatch Group seems to do a good job for Omega.

 

[JimJupiter]

I asked the seller for a pic in daylight. Seems like he added one now to the description. Unfortunately its not highres, but as we assumed, the dial has Patina and is not as nice as the one of e.g. Joes watch. But its not that bad, some other brand collectors would call it tropical and ask a markup

 

[Joe_A]

OnE wonders whether the photos are poor on purpose?

 

[mgernhar]

why would a "tropical" dial be worth more than a dial in good condition?

 

[HorologyBiology]

On wonders whether the photos are poor on purpose?

I don't think so, I think it's just an older generation of person so the tech or mindset isn't there. Their descriptions on all their listings are pretty vague and the pics are not brilliant. I've encountered these kind of sellers before and most of the time they are legit.

Besides, there is no business case there as one could simply just utter the magic words 'it doesn't run' and they would receive a full refund.

 

[HorologyBiology]

why would a "tropical" dial be worth more than a dial in good condition?

It's a selling ploy, besides I would be more concerned over receiving a minty dial on a watch of this age.

 

[JimJupiter]

why would a "tropical" dial be worth more than a dial in good condition?

Ask the Rolex or Speedmaster collectors!

 

[mgernhar]

if you look at the sellers other items, he clearly is not a watch collector, and most likely did not know what he had. I get a sense that he just threw it out there on ebay to see what happens. I would guess he got it for next to nothing. I am still predicting that it sells for 10-11k dollars.... we shall see

 

[HorologyBiology]

if you look at the sellers other items, he clearly is not a watch collector, and most likely did not know what he had. I get a sense that he just threw it out there on ebay to see what happens. I would guess he got it for next to nothing. I am still predicting that it sells for 10-11k dollars.... we shall see

His 11th pic is from the serial database so he clearly did some research.

$14k-$15k on this one...

Like I said before, there is zero risk for the buyer. If I was interested in the purchase fight then I would rather it be on eBay than any big time auction house.

 

[Joe_A]

Horses for courses.

To me, unless it is very uniform in appearance and eye-pleasing due to symmetry, what we call 'patina' is just another word for damaged, sometimes badly damaged.

And the term is generally misused when it comes to watches anyway.

I don't mean to pick on you Matt, but first you tell us how important the movement is and how wonderful must be the dial and then you tell us there is zero risk for the buyer.

Now if we were discussing a Longines with a 13zn movement . . .

Edit: Odds are though, that the watch will clean up reasonably well with the proper service. It must be purchased by an optimist, though.

 

[HorologyBiology]

Horses for courses.

To me, unless it is very uniform in appearance and eye-pleasing due to symmetry, what we call 'patina' is just another word for damaged, sometimes badly damaged.

And the term is generally misused when it comes to watches anyway.

I don't mean to pick on you Matt, but first you tell us how important the movement is and how wonderful must be the dial and then you tell us there is zero risk for the buyer.

Now if we were discussing a Longines with a 13zn movement . . .

Not picking at all mate, and I didn't want it to sound like a contradiction.

Of course the movement condition is very important but what I'm getting at is the zero risk because of the buying platform.

It's eBay man, if for whatever reason the person who buys it feels the dial is shot they can just simple state its not as described and receive their money back. He lists in the description that it did run. So a not as described case would be very straight forward. This is what I am referring to in regards to zero risk.

eBay always side with the buyer. Sad but unfortunately true as much as I don't condone it.

 

[mgernhar]

Horses for courses.

To me, unless it is very uniform in appearance and eye-pleasing due to symmetry, what we call 'patina' is just another word for damaged, sometimes badly damaged.

And the term is generally misused when it comes to watches anyway.

I don't mean to pick on you Matt, but first you tell us how important the movement is and how wonderful must be the dial and then you tell us there is zero risk for the buyer.

Now if we were discussing a Longines with a 13zn movement . . .

Edit: Odds are though, that the watch will clean up reasonably well with the proper service. It must be purchased by an optimist, though.

I agree with the notion that the buyer must be an optimist. If i recall another mk1a sold within the last 6 months at ~25k. It had the dial with the tan subdials, and gladiator hands and it was in excellent condition.

 

[mgernhar]

question for the board. What is the deal with the mk1a with the tan subdials, was that how someone restored it or did the mk1a come with that kind of dial. i only know of the grey, black. Are those tan sub dials original? So let say a perfect mk1a is worth 25k. I am going to guess that this watch will cost 3-$k to clean up, and service so it looks the best that it can, and then after that it might be worth 14-15k to the right buyer, hence my estimate for the sale on ebay at 10-11k. Buyer must be an optimist and ready to do some work on the watch.... this one is not for me.

 

[mgernhar]

in terms of just appearance, I think the mk3 with the paddle hands and the lollipop second hand is more attractive, although i would admit that the gladius hands are pretty unique.