New Arrival - Sherpa Graph Mark Ib "Gray & White" in superb condition!

[Joe_A]

Thanks!

I have collected quite a number of straps that are not in use, but I do have a white 20 mm leather, 20 mm to the buckle. I've a gray suede strap and an unused Uncle Seiko BoR.

As you say, there are no rules.

 

[Gopher]

It's fun to be creative with straps/bands! Can make it feel and look like a different watch. At least that is how I justify my inventory of unused straps and bracelets!

 

[SteveHarris]

Totally agree, although they do look amazing on the white Tropics I must say.

 

[JimJupiter]

historically accurate to Mr. Clark, I recall seeing at least one photo of him with a grey strap. Nico can correct me, if wrong.

Do you mean black with grey? We know pics of him wearing a grey-dial variant with a white and one (or maybe the same, but i doubt it) with a black tropic. since we all know the pics with the white one, this is the black one.

 

[Gopher]

Thanks, @JimJupiter. I recall seeing a photo of him in a passenger car wearing what looked like a grey strap. I will need to look for that.

 

[Joe_A]

Here's the first photo for you all!

 

[Joe_A]

I put a couple of early photos into the first post and changed the name of the thread.

May as well keep everything all in one place.

On a white rally strap 20 mm to the buckle to start.

I have not opened the watch yet or put it on the timegrapher, but that I will do this evening.

So far, about the only thing I see as a very minor issue is that the central seconds chrono hand resets to 0 plus 1 second. The watch will be serviced not all that far off, depending on how it looks on the timegrapher.

My watchmaker had been running two to four months turnaround time, but the last Gallet I sent to him took one year almost to the day and the one he has now is on month # 10. I will be very reluctant to part with the watch for a year so I may be on the hunt for a new watchmaker.

Cheers,

Joe

Here's a repeat of the first two photos so one does not have to flip back to the first post:

 

[Gopher]

Amazing condition, Joe! Your persistence and wait has been rewarded. Very pleased for you.
.

 

[Joe_A]

Thank you!
In a bit more subdued light indoors . . .

 

[JimJupiter]

Wow, what a condition! Congrats Joe to your Jim Clark. Would love if you let me know the serial via Pm

Nico

 

[Joe_A]

PM sent.

 

[Marco]

Beautiful watch, congrats on finally landing one Joe!

 

[Joe_A]

So does the watch need service?

If so, how soon?

How to we know when our watches need service?

Some obvious signs include stiff winding, stiff time setting and not keeping time all that well. Another sign is poor reserve. We expect our watches to need rewinding every 32 to 42 hours, depending upon the specifications for the movement, but when our watch barely manages to go a day between rewinds it needs service.

It is always best to assume that, when we buy a vintage watch, it hasn't been serviced for a long time and it will need service pretty soon.

Even when one sends a watch out for service, we may be disappointed with the result if the "watchmaker" is not a real watchmaker. I had the experience of sending a watch to a so-called watchmaker once - a factory rep, no less - and after sending it back three times over the space of a year and a half, I paid to have a real watchmaker actually perform a proper service.

How do we know that a watch has been properly serviced or just superficially looked at and adjusted?

There is really only one way I know and that is to invest $150 in a timegrapher and learn how to use it - which is quite easy as there are a good number of Youtube tutorials out there and one can learn enough in an hour.

The first thing I do when receiving a watch is to check it's performance on the timegrapher and establish a benchmark. I do this by recording the performance of the watch in each of six positions:

Dial up
Crown Down - Second most imprtant postion for a right-handed person who wears the watch on the left wrist.
Crown Up - Second most important position for a left-handed person who wears the watch on the right wrist.
Dial Down
Crown to the right - 12 o'clock up
Crown to the left - 6 o'clock up

When I do send it out, it had better come back running like new. Unfortunately, an unscrupulous faux watchmaker may be able to adjust the watch so that is superficially runs better than when you sent it out, but only the timegrapher will tell you whether it has been serviced or not.

Aside:

In the case of the one bad example I had, the watch was returned and seemed to keep time well. On the timegrapher, its performance was unchanged. When I politely brought this to their attention, they claimed the watch may have been magnetized in shipment. This was BS, but I de-magnatized it anyway to no improvement . . . and back it went.

The next time it came back no better than before and this time they complained about my timegrapher! I established that all my other watches came back from a real watchmaker improved. Back it went again and it came to me months later, once again, no better than before. "Unfotunately you have a Monday Morning watch," they said. "Sometimes during manufacturing there are hidden problems hard to uncover." More BS. It went back one more time before I sent it out to RGM in Mt. Joy Pa and it came back running as new. I asked RGM what the primary issue was with the watch and they told me it was dirty. It appeared never to have been serviced!

If you love vintage watches, invest $150 in a timegrapher.

/Aside.

So how does my new Sherpa graph Ib perform?

It is keeping time well, within seconds the first 24 hours.
It is stiff to wind.
It is smooth to set
And it looks like this on the timegrapher:



[In the interest of simplicity, I am only showing the measurement in the Dial Up position.]


So does it need service? Yes, it does, but it is not yet urgent.

How do I know?

A couple of things first:

Amplitude is the strength of the beat of the watch and is is measured in degrees of rotation of the balance. Ideally one wants to see an amplitude of 300 or better in the easiest plane of rotation which is with the dial facing upward.

Beat Error is the asymmetry of the rotation back and forth of the balance, measured in milliseconds of difference one side to the other.. Ideally, beat error should be 0 msec, while in the real world anything 0.5 msec and below is excellent . . . and anything below 1.0 msec is satisfactory.

With the dial up, the amplitude is about 262 to 272 degrees of amplitude which is not bad at all for an old watch. Anything below 200 and you had better get it serviced immediately.

The beat error is not surprising, but after servicing it will be below 1.0 msec.

Why is the watch keeping time well even though is is showing running slightly fast at +11 seconds per day?
Because with the crown down it is running slower and on average it is keeping time to within seconds a day s far.

Here's what my Mark III looks like a year after it was serviced properly by RGM:


I've just touched on the most important issues . . .

More if there is interest.

Cheers,

Joe

 

[jbcollier]

…. Keep going.

 

[Joe_A]

…. Keep going.

Easy for you to say!

I think if I were go much further, it would be better to begin in a new thread entitled something like:

"How do you know when it's time to have you vintage watch serviced?"

with a subtitle to the effect: "and how do you know that a watch has been serviced properly upon return?""

I'll save this for another time perhaps.

For now, one can see that putting a watch on a timegrapher and establishing a benchmark is a good way to start. One just can't assume that, if the watch is keeping time reasonably well, that it's probably OK. One may be subjecting it to damaging wear without being aware.

Anther indicator of excessive friction due to either dried out lubricants or wear on a bearing surface is observable when the difference in amplitude is unexpectedly high from position to position. An example would be, when the dial is up and the dial is down, the amplitude should be close to the same, but if it drops precipitously in either position, one may have a worn jewel. It may be worse when the balance staff is horizontal to the earth's surface rather than in the vertical vertical wear the bearing surface will have more asymmetrical forces applied. After all, the performance of a mechanical watch is affected by gravity.

Have a look at this table:



What you see above is the state of my Sherpa Graph Mark Id at some point in time before I sent it out for service to RGM.

Notice that, with the mainspring fully wound, the highest Amplitude is 279 in the dial up position and the lowest amplitude is 228 degrees with the watch in the vertical crown right position. Beat error rate varies from 2.6 to 3.8 msecs for a range of 1.2 msecs min. to max. On the right, I show the average errors in timekeeping in seconds per day.

Even though this watch needed service, one can see that, if one only averages the timekeeping errors from Dial Up, Crown Down and Crown Up, the watch would only lose about 2.4 seconds per 24 hours assuming equal amounts of time in each position.

I also check to see what happens as the mainspring wears down.

When I establish a benchmark, I do it for various states of wind. I usually check fully wound, half-wound and one-quarter wound

Here I show Half-Wound, or about 18 hours after having been fully wound.



The amplitude is a bit less, the beat error is a bit sloppier, and the watch has actually sped up a bit. Instead of losing a few seconds a day, it is now gaining a few seconds a day.

After about 24 hours, one would think the watch was in good shape. It's not in bad shape, but it does need service.

How does the performance look after service at RGM?



Look at the increase in amplitude with a high of 336.
The low amplitude with the crown down is a very good 283 for that position.
Look at the beat error of between 0,5 and 0.9 msec. The deviation is now much smaller at 0.4 msec instead of 1.2 msecs.

How about 24 hours later after having been fully wound?



Tell me that is not a thing of beauty!

Do you think any faux watchmaker will be able to pull the wool over my eyes?

If you do not have access to a timegrapher and you send a watch out for service, when you get it back, if it keeps time reasonably well you still will not know whether it was properly serviced or not.

So where are we with the subject watch, the Mark Ib?



It's not bad.

It's keeping time . . .

But by now you understand that it does need to be serviced.

There is no hurry.

I can enjoy it for a while before sending it out.

Questions?

 

[Stephanerunge]

…. Keep going.

Easy for you to say!

I think if I were go much further, it would be better to begin in a new thread entitled something like:

"How do you know when it's time to have you vintage watch serviced?"

with a subtitle to the effect: "and how do you know that a watch has been serviced properly upon return?""

I'll save this for another time perhaps.

For now, one can see that putting a watch on a timegrapher and establishing a benchmark is a good way to start. One just can't assume that, if the watch is keeping time reasonably well, that it's probably OK. One may be subjecting it to damaging wear without being aware.

Anther indicator of excessive friction due to either dried out lubricants or wear on a bearing surface is observable when the difference in amplitude is unexpectedly high from position to position. An example would be, when the dial is up and the dial is down, the amplitude should be close to the same, but if it drops precipitously in either position, one may have a worn jewel. It may be worse when the balance staff is horizontal to the earth's surface rather than in the vertical vertical wear the bearing surface will have more asymmetrical forces applied. After all, the performance of a mechanical watch is affected by gravity.

Have a look at this table:

View attachment 5283

What you see above is the state of my Sherpa Graph Mark Id at some point in time before I sent it out for service to RGM.

Notice that, with the mainspring fully wound, the highest Amplitude is 279 in the dial up position and the lowest amplitude is 228 degrees with the watch in the vertical crown right position. Beat error rate varies from 2.6 to 3.8 msecs for a range of 1.2 msecs min. to max. On the right, I show the average errors in timekeeping in seconds per day.

Even though this watch needed service, one can see that, if one only averages the timekeeping errors from Dial Up, Crown Down and Crown Up, the watch would only lose about 2.4 seconds per 24 hours assuming equal amounts of time in each position.

I also check to see what happens as the mainspring wears down.

When I establish a benchmark, I do it for various states of wind. I usually check fully wound, half-wound and one-quarter wound

Here I show Half-Wound, or about 18 hours after having been fully wound.

View attachment 5284

The amplitude is a bit less, the beat error is a bit sloppier, and the watch has actually sped up a bit. Instead of losing a few seconds a day, it is now gaining a few seconds a day.

After about 24 hours, one would think the watch was in good shape. It's not in bad shape, but it does need service.

How does the performance look after service at RGM?

View attachment 5285

Look at the increase in amplitude with a high of 336.
The low amplitude with the crown down is a very good 283 for that position.
Look at the beat error of between 0,5 and 0.9 msec. The deviation is now much smaller at 0.4 msec instead of 1.2 msecs.

How about 24 hours later after having been fully wound?

View attachment 5286

Tell me that is not a thing of beauty!

Do you think any faux watchmaker will be able to pull the wool over my eyes?

If you do not have access to a timegrapher and you send a watch out for service, when you get it back, if it keeps time reasonably well you still will not know whether it was properly serviced or not.

So where are we with the subject watch, the Mark Ib?

View attachment 5287

It's not bad.

It's keeping time . . .

But by now you understand that it does need to be serviced.

There is no hurry.

I can enjoy it for a while before sending it out.

Questions?

Hi Joe,
I have a question.
Your post was really interesting and I thank you for it.
We had a discussion on the Gallet group a while ago, and I saw that you send your Gallet to a very slow watchmaster. So how do you choose your watchmaster? Is it in relation to the brand or the movement or something else? I have a watch who is to a watchmaster for more than 2 years and 3 months but they make a good job.

 

[Joe_A]

Stephane,

Thank you.

Probably, the best way to find a good watchmaker is to seek recommendation from people who have had more experience, which is what I did. In the New York area, I was recommended to check in with Grand Central Watch (I did not reach out to them in the end) and RGM in Pennsylvania.

RGM Watch Co. America's Premier Watchmaker — RGM Watch Co.

RGM Watch Co specializes in the manufacture of high grade mechanical watches. RGM also makes custom made watches and does repair and restoration work on mechanical watches both modern and antique.

www.rgmwatches.com

A couple of years ago, I brought two watches out to RGM, met Roland Murphy as well as his watchmakers, and had a short tour of his facility. It is housed in an historic bank building and the old safe is where the watches are kept. They specialize in Guilloche and enamel processes among other things. RGM is a factory authorized service center for a number of current brands and sometimes they fall behind on scheduling.

I've had eight watches serviced by them and the work is both consistent and first rate. Up until watch number 8 and 9, they were taking from 60 to 120 days, which is quite reasonable. The last one I got back took about a year and currently they have #9 for 10 months.

I tried the one other watchmaker alluded to in previous posts and I found them to be unsatisfactory. I sent one watch only to them four times, paying about $850 for the service and after seeing how poorly the watch was running on the timgrapher each time and with no improvement, I sent the watch to RGM, paid approximately the same and got the watch back in maybe 2 months running as new. That's the watch that was said to be "dirty and appeared never to have been disassembled." That poor entity fed me BS explanations and hard-luck stories with each trip of the watch. I am very reluctant to publicly shame the incompetent service entity for the experience I had with the one watch. I would condemn them publicly if I were to send a second watch to them and it received a similar poor effort, but I will never send another watch to them.

This seems like a good resource:

Watch repair by geographical location (search engines)

www.watchuseek.com

I have "hung out" at OmegaForums.net for a few years now and have learned a lot.

I also spend a bit less time at WUS.

Note: I would not rely on recommendations made in a FB Group unless the person making the recommendation is also a member of the watch community in other established places, where watch idiot savants hang out.

Nico's group - Vintage Enicar - is like being here, almost.

Facebook is to good recommendations as MSM is to accurately reporting anything in an unbiased manner.

If I could not get a personal recommendation, I would look at NAWCC membership watchmakers, but I'd try and meet one or more face to face before making a decision.

I have two Sherpa Graphs that I want to service now, the Ia and the Ib. I'll try and get into the queue at RGM and failing that, I will meet with Grand Central Watch:

Home | Grand Central Terminal | Grand Central Watch

Grand Central Watch NYC’s premier watch repair service for any vintage or modern watch from at Timex to a Rolex to a Patek Philippe and everything in between.

centralwatch.com

I will not send these watches out to anyone without vetting the entity as thoroughly as I am able.

I learned my lesson with "the bad guys." People praise their work, but I would bet that the people who like them have never put a "repaired watch" on a timegrapher.

Wherever my watch goes, it will be bench-marked first and tested upon return.

It's easier to find a good lawyer, or accountant, or doctor.

 

[Joe_A]

Finishing up the initial benchmark for the Sherpa Graph Ib:

Twelve hours after being fully wound:



Twenty-four hours after being fully wound:



The watch has been running for about 36 hours +/- on one wind and it's still running and it is showing 6:07 PM at 6:07 PM local time.

What you may notice is that, looking only at the most common position averaged, dial up, crown down and crown up:

Fully Would the watch is losing 0.5 seconds a day
Half wound, the watch is losing 0.8 seconds a day, nominally same as above.
As the watch winds down, it speeds up a bit and at 24 hours after being fully wound, it is gaining 4.3 seconds a day.

These measurement are correct in terms of orders of magnitude, but they should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I do adjust my watches for six positions, favoring mostly dial up and crown down.

If you think about it, a person who wears his watch on the left wrist will have the dial up most of the time when sitting and will have the crown down most of the time will walking. For a person who wears the watch on the right wrist, one can favor the crown up position a bit in the adjustment averages.

Some day, I'll send the watch out and then I'll get it back and hopefully the improvement will be similar to what is seen with the Sherpa Graph Id above.

Cheers,

Joe

 

[Stephanerunge]

Stephane,

Thank you.

Probably, the best way to find a good watchmaker is to seek recommendation from people who have had more experience, which is what I did. In the New York area, I was recommended to check in with Grand Central Watch (I did not reach out to them in the end) and RGM in Pennsylvania.

RGM Watch Co. America's Premier Watchmaker — RGM Watch Co.

RGM Watch Co specializes in the manufacture of high grade mechanical watches. RGM also makes custom made watches and does repair and restoration work on mechanical watches both modern and antique.

www.rgmwatches.com

A couple of years ago, I brought two watches out to RGM, met Roland Murphy as well as his watchmakers, and had a short tour of his facility. It is housed in an historic bank building and the old safe is where the watches are kept. They specialize in Guilloche and enamel processes among other things. RGM is a factory authorized service center for a number of current brands and sometimes they fall behind on scheduling.

I've had eight watches serviced by them and the work is both consistent and first rate. Up until watch number 8 and 9, they were taking from 60 to 120 days, which is quite reasonable. The last one I got back took about a year and currently they have #9 for 10 months.

I tried the one other watchmaker alluded to in previous posts and I found them to be unsatisfactory. I sent one watch only to them four times, paying about $850 for the service and after seeing how poorly the watch was running on the timgrapher each time and with no improvement, I sent the watch to RGM, paid approximately the same and got the watch back in maybe 2 months running as new. That's the watch that was said to be "dirty and appeared never to have been disassembled." That poor entity fed me BS explanations and hard-luck stories with each trip of the watch. I am very reluctant to publicly shame the incompetent service entity for the experience I had with the one watch. I would condemn them publicly if I were to send a second watch to them and it received a similar poor effort, but I will never send another watch to them.

This seems like a good resource:

Watch repair by geographical location (search engines)

www.watchuseek.com

I have "hung out" at OmegaForums.net for a few years now and have learned a lot.

I also spend a bit less time at WUS.

Note: I would not rely on recommendations made in a FB Group unless the person making the recommendation is also a member of the watch community in other established places, where watch idiot savants hang out.

Nico's group - Vintage Enicar - is like being here, almost.

Facebook is to good recommendations as MSM is to accurately reporting anything in an unbiased manner.

If I could not get a personal recommendation, I would look at NAWCC membership watchmakers, but I'd try and meet one or more face to face before making a decision.

I have two Sherpa Graphs that I want to service now, the Ia and the Ib. I'll try and get into the queue at RGM and failing that, I will meet with Grand Central Watch:

Home | Grand Central Terminal | Grand Central Watch

Grand Central Watch NYC’s premier watch repair service for any vintage or modern watch from at Timex to a Rolex to a Patek Philippe and everything in between.

centralwatch.com

I will not send these watches out to anyone without vetting the entity as thoroughly as I am able.

I learned my lesson with "the bad guys." People praise their work, but I would bet that the people who like them have never put a "repaired watch" on a timegrapher.

Wherever my watch goes, it will be bench-marked first and tested upon return.

It's easier to find a good lawyer, or accountant, or doctor.
[/QUOTE
Thank you very much for all these lively explanations. I read everything and opened all lincks. It was very interesting to see how others are doing, but living in Norway it is very difficult to find the right watchmaker. I wish I could see him before I leave him my watches, like you did.
Greeting
Stephane

 

[Joe_A]

A little more "Show and Tell" . . .

I mentioned that I was going to open up the watch and examine the movement. In the process I will mention something that even Nico may not know!!!!



Those who know at a glance whether the case back is properly closed will recognize that the case back was only half-way toward the fully locked position of the bayonet.

When the watch is properly closed, the "I" is just below the crown and the "O" for open is off to the right about 30 degrees +/-

As I suspected, the case has a very tight fit and someone who knew how to put the back on did not want to force-fit it.

Here is the tool I used to open and close the watch:



The 14-sided all brass tool was milled on a CNC machine by my favorite watchmaker, RGM. He made one for the company and one for me. I do not have the experience or machine necessary to make such a tool, but I do have a small machine shop with manually operated tools, including a mini-lathe and mini-mill.

The tool had the holes drilled by RGM as you see to accommodate the removal press that RGM uses. I made the adapter on the right so I can used the tool by hand and apply some leverage:



So now lets look inside:



The first thing I look to see is the condition of the slotted (minus-head) screw heads. A watch that has been abused or serviced by a sloppy person will have screw heads that are a bit chewed up. A movement that has been properly cared for will be clean in appearance the the screw heads will be sharp with little or no sign that the watchmaker did not have a proper set of drivers.

Slightly different lighting:



There are various versions of the Valjoux 72 movement even of the type that has the standard chrono complication.

All the Sherpa Graph Mark one watches use an earlier version of the V.72 that has a fixed or non-adjustable stud carrier. I do not own a Mark II, but from a number of photographs I have examined, the Mark IIa has the older movement with a fixed stud carrier and the Mark IIb through the Mark IV uses an ugraded movement with a mobile stud carrier. Did Nico know this, lol? We'll soon find out.

I will discuss the difference between the two types of balance assemblies in another post.

Proper date stamp inside the case:



Time to button it back up!



Note that I did not force the back to a 100% full close as the case is very tight and I do not want to risk the tool slipping off and scratching the case next time I open it up.

Cheers,

Joe