What other vintage brands do you collect?

SteveHarris

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I must admit that I don't really collect any other brands per se but will pick up something that catches my eye. A 60's or 70's chrono normally does that :cool:.

Are there any vintage brands you would consider to be 'under the radar' that you like to collect?

Steve
 

JimJupiter

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Why do they have to be under the radar? ;)
I mainly collect 60s chronographs with something in the design I like. The classic for me is the Speedmaster from Omega. I have a 105.003 - 63 and a 145.022 -69, so straight and lyre lugs. Love em both and they suits you in every situation. Also Heuer did some great watches, but I came a bit to late in this came to affort the ones I wanted :D Despite I have a 3647N and D, a 1163MH and soon a 1550SG. The rest of my watches are wild mixes: Dugena, Certina, some Omegas. Tissot and some Type 20/21 Chronographs.

some of em in pics ;)

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Nico
 

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Joe_A

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Before the photos, a couple of thoughts . . .

I am new to this hobby relatively speaking - 2 to 3 years - and has been mentioned elsewhere, when one's interest is first awakened, one is likely to buy watches that will eventually be sold on or perhaps given away as one learns and develops a more personally refined taste. We can each and all wake up one day and realize that it is quite possible to have too many watches. Sometimes the "shine" just wears off. ;)

I became enamored for awhile with JLC and I decided I'd like something beautiful, but not one of the very high-end pieces, in the end I bought a dress watch in rose gold:

442

It's just been picked up after full service at RGM Watch Co. where I also had my S.G. Mk Id serviced.

Not long after I bought it, I realized that I don't need a dress watch as I do not go places all that often where one may be appreciated. :)

So what? I wear it now and then and it is small enough to where I may leave it to one of my granddaughters if either show an interest in it while I am still around.

Each of us here appear to have an abiding interest in tool watches . . . and I have developed an affinity for Enicar and Gallet.

I'll put the two Sherpa Graphs up side by side, inside and out in the appropriate thread, but let's speak about Gallet.

From somewhere not important . . .

Gallet is the world's oldest watch and clock making house with history dating back to Humbertus Gallet, a clock maker who became a citizen of Genève in 1466. ... Gallet is best known during the 20th century to the present day for its line of MultiChron chronograph wristwatches.
I had a nice telephone chat with David Laurence (Gallet) recently and he shared with me some of his understandings of the long and storied relationship among the families Gallet, Racine (Enicar) and the origins of Excelsior Park. The more one looks, the more one finds that the histories and the people involved in what we now refer to as vintage watches are intertwined - in some cases by intermarriage among the families.

So I have two MC12H watches:

446

What is "right" with this watch is nearly everything. I say "nearly" because the lugs, while beveled, have had the fine chamfer removed by polishing. Gallet has three watchmakers working at the moment, Larry, Lou and Happy and the watch is down in Peachtree Corners being serviced. I've asked for Happy, the fellow who restores cases, to see whether he can replace the missing very fine parallel chamfers.

Gallet produced the MC12 three register watches in two basic versions - movement-wise with either the Excelsior Park Park EP40 movement or the Valjoux 72 as is the case for our Graphs. There are many dial variations. The EP40 eventually had its balance wheel lightened and a mobile stud carrier fitted over the space of some years and the final version of the movement is the EP40-68 as seen here:

447

This movement can be adjusted to chronometer accuracy of the 1960s.

Here is the other one, also with the EP40-68:

445

This "Jim Clark" MC12H is at RGM Watch Co. where it will receive full service and have its pushers replaced and the hands relumed.

There are many interesting Gallet watches from which to choose and they are currently priced at about one-third to half what one would pay for a Sherpa Graph, give or take.

The next one of these I buy will likely be a "snow white."

There are Heuers I like, but my objections are like that of Nico. They cost too darn much for what you receive. One can buy a Croton or a Zodiac or even a Gallet Pilot - for a fraction of the price of an Autavia if one wants a loosely similar watch at a much more reasonable price.

More another time.
 
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kazrich

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Hi Joe ;
That's a lovely collection and very similar to my own taste's.
From what I have seen from Nico's, Steve and your own collections we all have
very similar tastes - ie. Primarily, interesting 1960's quality sports watches.
I thought that Gallet produced different cases for the MC12 with different chamfers ?
Why not use your JLC alarm as a talking point ? Mine stops guests in their tracks when it's
activated at dinner parties. It's set to buzz when I need to leave to miss the traffic going home.
Sounds something between a manic cockroach and a cornered rattlesnake !
I tend not to activate it on crowded trains.
 

Joe_A

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Gallet seems to have two basic lug types for the MC12 and both are beveled. The difference is in the chamfer which is either a subtle parallel edge chamfer or else a more dramatic triangular chamfer. I've observed that, when the movement is EP, the chamfer is more often subtle, whereas when the movement is Valjoux, it tends to be more bold.

Here's the type of chamfer I would accentuate on my two EP40-68 watches:

448

The next two happen to have the Valjoux 72 movements and also happen to have the triangular chamfers:

449

For those who may not know, one can tell which movement a Gallet Tachymeter/Telemeter watch has at a glance. In the case for an EP40, the 9 & 3 subdials are well inside the Telemeter scale. In the case of the Valjoux 72 watches, the subdial impinges upon the scale. Also . . .

The center axial circle for the 12-hour counter hand is slightly larger in diameter on an EP40 watch whereas the center circles on all three subdial hands are the same diameter for the Val. 72 watches.

Disclaimer: Nothing I post should be taken as authoritative. It only takes a photo or two to humble me. ;)
 

Joe_A

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I decided to delete a post that went too far afield, but I did not see the delete button. ;)
 

kazrich

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Yep. But the lug chamfers are almost too subtle to see with the naked eye.
Easy way to tell the difference on the wrist is
EP chrono pushers are equidistant from the crown.
Val 72 top pusher is closer to the crown than the bottom pusher . Same as Enicar Sherpa Graph ( also Val 72 )
When upturned only EP shows H on the left lug. The Valjoux doesn't.
 

Joe_A

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I think the way the light is hitting the inverted Gallet by Racine photo above is about the sharpest and clearest I've ever seen the subtle parallel edge chamfer.

Note the "H" in my earlier post, as you say, seen only on the EP watches. According to David Laurence, Gallet made cases for a number of watchmakers who chose the EP movement. One can find the movement in watches by Excelsior Park, Sinn, Girard Perregaux and Zenith among others, no doubt. Gallet's own cases sometimes had the more pronounced chamfer.

Here is a Girard Perregaux with EP40 movement that I would like to acquire despite my having too many watches:

452

Good thing for my bank account that none are available!

I believe the one above belongs to WatchFred. Note the more pronounced triangular chamfers even though an EP based watch.

I forgot to mention the pusher spacing asymmetry on the Valjoux 23/72 family movements. Hard to sometimes see though unless looking squarely at the face or back. Looking at the photos of the "Jim Clark" MC12 with V.72 I put up, the asymmetry in the one on the left is harder to see whereas it's obvious in the one to the right - to a watch nerd, that is.
 

kazrich

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Yes, the GP is a good looker.
If I were blindfold I could still easily tell between my EP 40-68 and a Val 72 ( as in Graph ).
When reset the Val 72 is smoother, and quieter.
The Excelsior Park snaps back to 12 with rifle bolt old school mechanical precision that can be felt in the hand.
Both movements are equally impressive in their own way but visually the EP movement is a beauty to behold.
 

kazrich

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Here's my own small non Enicar watch collection.

1968 Gallet Multichron 12. Movement. Excelsior Park 40-68.
Jim Clark wore an MC12 to the track the year he won the Indy 500.
To my knowledge the only driver ever to win the World Championship and the Indy 500 in the same year.
He also had a penchant for Enicar and Breitling.







1969 Omega Dynamic. Blue dial. Omega 1153/130 brushed stainless steel bracelet.
Omega cal 601 . Manuel wind and 40mm without the crown.
Stainless steel elliptical monocoque case ( top loader ). Clean and simple.




1973 Bradley ' Fat Boy ' Mickey Mouse' watch.
Movement. 17 jewel Baumgartner Freres BFG cal. 866
Same style and model of watch worn by Tom Hanks in the movie Angels and Demons.
Impossible to wear this watch for a day without incurring comments and amusement.






1960's Excelsior Park Rattrapante Split Second duel Timer.




The movement features an unusual compartment to ostensibly store spare parts.
Or maybe to conceal gems and white powders.



1949/ 1950 Jaeger LeCoultre Ref 3150 Alarm. JLC cal 489 ( no shock protection )
This watch was made exclusively for the European market and featured tubular lugs and later evolved into the Wrist Alarm, then the Memovox.




1961 JeanRichard Aquastar 60.

This model was worn by Lt.Don Walsh who, with Jacques Piccard were the first men to dive
the World's deepest Ocean 36,000 ft below the surface of the Mariana Trench in their bathyscope Triest .
Allegedly this watch featured the worlds first Lollipop seconds hand.




JeanRichard Aquastar later morphed into the Aquastar brand and lives on to this day.


1960's Aquastar Deepstar

Claimed to be the first chronograph capable of diving more than 10 ATM
These watches were most often worn by the inventor of the aqualung Jacques Cousteau and his crew on the Calypso in the landmark television series, The Undersea World of Jacques Cousteau.
This watch is the rarer midnight blue version powered by the Valjoux 92 - the same movement used in the Heuer Autavia 3646 (Andretti).
Originally it featured peppermint green hands and lume plots on the blue dial. They have now faded to a white colour, but under magnification the peppermint green lume still grins through.

















I've put the brakes on watch collecting just now.
 

Joe_A

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At the moment, there are two Deepstar watches over at Chrono24 priced in the $10K to $11K range and neither even come close to Richard's watch in state of preservation.

What a beauty, Richard!

I like the deep blue better than the other two dial colors I have seen.

I have found a "poor man's Deepstar," a very loose equivalent, but I have not yet pulled the trigger on it and I am reluctant to show a photo until I decide once and for all to buy it or not. If it gets sold, I will breathe a sigh of relief because then I won't be compelled to buy it myself. :)

One does not have to buy a Deepstar if one is hooked on a Cousteau inspired watch. There are others from which to choose though the Deepstar is the most iconic:

 

kazrich

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Hi Joe , Thanks for your kind comments re the Deepstar.
Deepstars, like the Sherpa Graph came with slightly different dials and features.
They were marketed in Italy as Lorenz and Spain as Duward. The Duward has less
info on the bezel. In America they were distributed by Heuer but retained the Aquastar brand name.
The usual erroneous myths apply when buying and selling Deepstars .

“ For sale the rarest most sought after Valjoux 23 version of the Deepstar.”
Val 23 versions are identified by heavy decoration of the markers at 12, 6, and 9 o clock.
Fact. These are by far the most common version. 9 / 10 Goggle image searches will picture the
' super rare ' Valjoux 23 version.
Cousteau's team are clearly wearing Val 92 watches where the ' decoration ' has been replaced with easier to read large lume plots.
Most models feature a propeller at 9.00 clock. This moves irrespective of the chronograph action and marks the continuous elapsed seconds.
Some versions simply don't feature a propeller.
They are usually advertised as 38mm. The correct measurement is 37.5 mm.
On the wrist they wear more like 39mm.
These were genuine divers watches and one man's “ Wonderful irreplaceable patina” is another man's
“ Salt water damaged dial that might have penetrated through to the mechanism “.
Regardless of model or manufactures brand name they are all more than just a bit special.
Richard
 

Joe_A

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Good background information and thank you.

Your post caused me to "unlearn" something that I thought I'd properly learned . . . and I'll now share the correction.

Until now, I incorrectly understood that the V.92 movement had a 45 minute minutes counter whereas one can spot a V.23 or a V.22 with a 30-minute minutes counter. Wrong. Any of the three may be factory set to have either a 30-minute or a 45-minute minutes counter.

With the back off, the V.92 has 7 pillars on the pillar or column wheel whereas the other Valjoux models generally have 9 pillars.

All of the above subject to correction by someone who really knows what they are about. :)
 
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JimJupiter

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I think the easiest way to tell if it is a V92 or V23 are the pushers. On a V92 the pusher are symetric, that means the way to the crown for both pushers are the same. The V23 has asymetric pushers. The bottom pusher has a longer way to the crown. Once you know it, you can't unsee it ;)

If you start to count the teeth of the columnwheel, you also just can have a view under the balance wheel. You will find the correct name of the movement there. But both movements are so different to each other, you can see on first sight when the caseback is off which movement it is.

Nico

Edit: forgot to say. Those Deepstars are beautiful watches!
 
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Joe_A

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So here is what I may refer to as "the poor man's Deepstar, very loose near-equivalent . . . but not really." :)


536

It is of the same time period, is also a dive watch and sports a Valjoux 92 movement. Case is suggestive of the Aquastar.

Price is 1/6 to 1/8 the cost of a Deepstar in similar overall condition.

Why haven't I bought it?

I find myself becoming far more selective.

I've been wearing the Mark III Graph nearly every day for months at a time and as it is, my other watches are starting to show signs of jealousy. :)
 

kazrich

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Yes Joe ;
The case does look similar and a nicely detailed watch.
When I was 17 I had a Saturday job at a local dept store. Sometimes I helped out on
gifts / watches section. All of the girlie watches ( if it's still legal to say that ) were Timex
Avia and Rotary. That's still stuck solid in my head and would put me off buying any of them.
I've never seen a Deepstar with a 45 seconds counter although 1962 Autavia Andretti has it.
BTW from my experience the easiest way to tell the difference re V92 & 23 is serial nos.
V92 = 2 - - - - -
V23 = 5 - - - - -
And V92 is deeply inscribed 92 under the serial nos.
Richard
 

Joe_A

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I like the Rotary symbol/icon. It's a bit like a naval aviation symbol.

I also like the asymmetry of the hands on the the subdials. Diamond lollipop seconds is interesting as is the overall lume treatment.

I am doubly glad I did not buy it now . . . as you'd have poked fun at me for buying a girlie watch. :)
 

kazrich

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Yes, that Rotary has nice styling details, but Rotary was always a budget watch
and still is. I would imagine it cost south of £ 400.00 ?
The way I see it, buying a predominately women's make diver is akin to buying a Stradivarius Concert Grand Piano ?
 

Joe_A

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Yes, that Rotary has nice styling details, but Rotary was always a budget watch
and still is. I would imagine it cost south of £ 400.00 ?
The way I see it, buying a predominately women's make diver is akin to buying a Stradivarius Concert Grand Piano ?
Let's call this a friendly disagreement. ;)

Nearly all the watches we admire were not high-end watches in their day. Rather, they lagged behind solid gold watches of the period and, it's rather shocking to think a Rolex Daytona - before it was retrospectively named Daytona, would have sold for perhaps $200 in 1965.

What would that be today?

I just looked at a calculator that shows a 1965 dollar to be $8.6675 so a $200 Rolex should be worth about $1,733.50. Before we get too excited about how much that Rolex chronograph has actually appreciated we should also remember that many watches did not appreciate all that much and who knew which ones would appreciate and which would not? Rolex would have been seen as a safer bet perhaps. How may fakes are in circulation today, one wonders?

Getting back to the Rotary versus similar V.92 watches, there is little obvious real difference in material and workmanship. The value differences are in the intangibles.

Let's look at these three Valjoux 72 based watches . . .

The first is a fine watch with a screw back case:

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Price at Chrono 24 is $4,219.00

How about this one?

555

Its a 2446c with a snap-back for a mere $14,513.00. Setting aside the difference in bezel as the Autavia also had the MH bezel, is there really any difference apart from the cache in the name?

What about this one?

556

It's only $29,818.00.

Everyone will agree that the screw-back justifies a doubling in price, right?

The dial and bezel are inferior to the BWC and the 2446c. The case is over-polished. Some wouldn't touch it at any price.

It's yours if you want it . . . as I'm not interested. ;)

A brief Rolex Daytona history lesson . . .

 
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