The Super Compressor lid?

[JimJupiter]

btw I opened some of the watches i had here:

- Sherpa Dive - spring check!
- Sherpa Dive - spring check!
- Sherpa Graph- spring check!
- Sherpa guide- spring check!
- Jet Graph- spring nope
- Aqua Graph - spring check!

so one in 6 is pretty obvious for me at the moment. Should be there, lost during time.

 

[Hugger69]

btw I opened some of the watches i had here:

- Sherpa Dive - spring check!
- Sherpa Dive - spring check!
- Sherpa Graph- spring check!
- Sherpa guide- spring check!
- Jet Graph- spring nope
- Aqua Graph - spring check!

so one in 6 is pretty obvious for me at the moment. Should be there, lost during time.

Great for you!
...and not so great for me!

That means that I miss that spring on my lid for the Super-DIVETTE.....anyone got a spare?

 

[jbcollier]

A small segue.

In the late 60s, Sunbeam was bought by Chrysler and Sunbeam cars were sold through the Chrysler network in North America. This led to the embarrassing situation of Chrysler selling the Ford-powered Sunbeam Tiger. As a stop-gap measure, a single Chrysler penta-star logo was affixed to the curb-side front fender. This has led to cars being restored with pent-stars on both fenders as no-one could see why there should be only one.

Long story made short: just because it looks like something is missing, doesn't mean it actually is.

I would wait for more information before retrofitting any watches "missing" that spring.

 

[Hugger69]

A small segue.

In the late 60s, Sunbeam was bought by Chrysler and Sunbeam cars were sold through the Chrysler network in North America. This led to the embarrassing situation of Chrysler selling the Ford-powered Sunbeam Tiger. As a stop-gap measure, a single Chrysler penta-star logo was affixed to the curb-side front fender. This has led to cars being restored with pent-stars on both fenders as no-one could see why there should be only one.

Long story made short: just because it looks like something is missing, doesn't mean it actually is.

I would wait for more information before retrofitting any watches "missing" that spring.

Good point!

 

[Joe_A]

My Mark Id Graph has the spring and it is impossible to open without the 14-sided specialized tool.

Edit: My Mark III can be opened with a case opening ball against the case. The spring is also in place but the wave is flatter.

In my relatively inexperienced opinion, the spring was likely misplaced or thrown away on the Mark III to make the case easier to open.

* * * * *

I once owned a 1965 Olds Cutlass 330 V8. Once upon a time the front end developed a rattle. I took it to the local service station and when I picked it up the rattle was gone. Next time I visited I asked what was found to be the cause. "Your anti-sway bar had worn bushings on it and so we removed it and threw it away. You don't really need an anti-sway bar anyway."

I had just noticed the car had a newfound tendency to change lanes on the highway on its own . . . and after the second visit I understood why.

 

[Oysterquartz]

Normally these springs are for holding the movement and movementholder ring in place an also give a bit of shock resistance.

 

[martink]

Dear Enicaristi,

well, I am the guy who did the research on EPSA in several Swiss archives. (as mentioned by jimjupiter)
As you know, unfortunately EPSA went bankrupt in the 1980s and nearly all documents were lost.

So, it is difficult to say if there should be a spring in the Enicar case backs or not.

Here is my theory:
In the early days of the bayonet compressor (this is what I would call the special version of the Enicar super compressor case sealing) the seals were pretty much only thermoplastic material.
Very low compression deformation, high creep on the long run (giving in to constant pressure and deforming).
So, this is one of the reasons why EPSA developed the system: There needed to be a constant force onto the seal, but not too big not make it permanently alter its shape and then allow water or humidity creeping in.
If the water pressure rises, of course more pressure is needed. So this is coming from the water pressure on the case back, pushing it onto the sealing (the super compressor mechanism). The spring was there to prevent too much pressure onto the seal while not submerged into water.

So, I am not surprised to see the earlier watches having this spring.
Later, new materials were more common as sealing, and coming from different rubber materials.
They were able to compress a lot more elastically and spring back. Permanent deformation was not so much of an issue.
I would guess that with the introduction of the rubber sealing materials, maybe the springs were not needed any more.

I have never seen documentation about this, but this is my guess coming from all that I have seen and read.

I hope this helps a bit on this topic.

My name is Martin, I live near Düsseldorf in Germany, and I really love Enicar watches and EPSA technology.

All the best,

Martin

 

[martink]

Dear Enicaristi,

as Hakan asked me again about this subject, I just wanted to write a bit more in detail about what I found out or what you can consider as my well-researched but personal viewpoint about the different compressor case back sealing systems.

We have the following brevets from EPSA (none from Enicar regarding this):
brevet 313813 - "compressor" - announced to the patent office 30. October 1953
brevet 314962 - "Enicar compressor (let's name it first like this) announced 2. November 1953
brevet 317537 - "super compressor" announced 22. November 1954

I would guess that all of these invention stem from the same basic idea and following parameter variations to check how to do it the best way.

The first patent by EPSA regarding the case backs with compressor principle (the pressure on the gasket rises with rising water pressure outside) was the "compressor" patent, Brevet 313813, which was a snap fit case back. No springs inside the case, at least not in the patent.
I guess the constant pressure on the gasket is ensured by the geometry of the snaps inside of the case back.


Then, the second patent for this kind of solution was the one used exclusively for/by Enicar.
First, EPSA used "EPSA-Stop" as a name, later when Enicar coined the term "Seapearl" EPSA stopped using any kind of denominator.
This is the bayonet solution, in the patent there is no spring illustrated.
Apparently some watches had a spring, some (later ones?) did not.
My guess is with the progression of gasket material, the spring was not necessary any more.



The third patent is the "super compressor" patent, which is a screw in case back, where the thread is decoupled by a spring, which means that the depth of screwing in did not control the pressure on the gasket, but rather a spring made sure to have a constant but not too high pressure on the gasket.
Only water pressure would increase the pressure to ensure that the gasket would be watertight in deeper waters.
Without a spring, this system would not work.




These are the facts.

So, what should we call the Enicar case back solution?
My personal opinion is to call it "bayonet compressor", but YMMV.
If we are to be very precise, one cannot call it "super compressor" as the patent is defining a screw in case back.
On the other hand, as most people who are not too deep in the matter call everything that has two crowns and has an internal bezel "super compressor" it is perfectly ok to use that term, just to roughly classify the watch case and to make it understandable for most.
And, it was classified into the same depth of water resistance as the super compressors.

On the upcoming Sherpa Watches, we will feature the "bayonet compressor" and "EPSA Stop" terminology, just to make sure you know I am biased.

Not to mention, of course, that the compressor crowns called "Monoflex" were used in all designs.
But this is another story...

All the best, have a splendid day / week - at least here in mid-west Germany its sunny and hot!

If you intend to use all of this online somewhere, it would be nice to credit me / Sherpa Watches for it.

Martin

 

[Hugger69]

Thank you so much Martijn for this very precise explanation!

....and the Enicar way would be the best way to get a watertight compressor construction, otherwise you shouldn’t have chosen that for your project huh?

 

[martink]

Thank you so much Martijn for this very precise explanation!

....and the Enicar way would be the best way to get a watertight compressor construction, otherwise you shouldn’t have chosen that for your project huh?

1. it is the original way
2. I love its simplicity

We changed it slightly but in general it is the same principle.

 

[hurmen]

Very informative Martin!

And I’d be very interested in the story of the Monoflex crown you mentioned.

 

[martink]

Very informative Martin!

And I’d be very interested in the story of the Monoflex crown you mentioned.

Dear Hurmen,

I did a post under Sherpa Watches on Instagram about it.

This crown was (at least for the first 5-10 years) integral part of the whole compressor watches concept.
As we are bringing these crowns back (the original design, updated to today's technology and materials), I would like to wait until their testing has been done.
When this is done, I would give more information.
I would expect this to happen within the next few weeks.

Cheers,

Martin

 

[Hugger69]

Dear Hurmen,

I did a post under Sherpa Watches on Instagram about it.

This crown was (at least for the first 5-10 years) integral part of the whole compressor watches concept.
As we are bringing these crowns back (the original design, updated to today's technology and materials), I would like to wait until their testing has been done.
When this is done, I would give more information.
I would expect this to happen within the next few weeks.

Cheers,

Martin

Interesting!
Where theese crowns also used on Enicar cases?

 

[martink]

Interesting!
Where theese crowns also used on Enicar cases?

Yes, as said above - for all compressor watch cases.
They have a special sealing system which is 100% working as a compressor.
Low pressure on the gasket material when in normal use - when water pressure is rising, it presses on the gasket to increase the sealing pressure.
I really love this concept.

 

[Hugger69]

Yes, as said above - for all compressor watch cases.
They have a special sealing system which is 100% working as a compressor.
Low pressure on the gasket material when in normal use - when water pressure is rising, it presses on the gasket to increase the sealing pressure.
I really love this concept.

Cool, my watchmaker is always wondering how they got the crowns sealed in the same level as the glass and back lid!
Can you find parts for the old Enicars Compressor crowns today and make them waterproof again, if you dare to use a vintage watch in or under water?

 

[martink]

Cool, my watchmaker is always wondering how they got the crowns sealed in the same level as the glass and back lid!
Can you find parts for the old Enicars Compressor crowns today and make them waterproof again, if you dare to use a vintage watch in or under water?

Dear Hakan,

these crowns are manufacured such that they are complete replacement parts.
There is no way to disassemble them and then repair.
They were never made for this.

Also in the modern version they are like that.
On the other hand, the gasket system is such that it should last very long.

The only option I can offer for the future is to have a compressor crown without logo to use for daily wearing.
They are the 6.3mm (or 6.2mm?) size and for 2.5mm tubes and 0.9mm stem.
If there is a big need, I could also make 1.2mm stem version.

But first I have to be confident that they work well.

And then of course the counterpart (tube) needs to be fresh or in very good condition for it all to work as intended.

All the best,
Martin

 

[Hugger69]

Dear Hakan,

these crowns are manufacured such that they are complete replacement parts.
There is no way to disassemble them and then repair.
They were never made for this.

Also in the modern version they are like that.
On the other hand, the gasket system is such that it should last very long.

The only option I can offer for the future is to have a compressor crown without logo to use for daily wearing.
They are the 6.3mm (or 6.2mm?) size and for 2.5mm tubes and 0.9mm stem.
If there is a big need, I could also make 1.2mm stem version.

But first I have to be confident that they work well.

And then of course the counterpart (tube) needs to be fresh or in very good condition for it all to work as intended.

All the best,
Martin

So you´re not going to use screw down crowns on your project?

 

[martink]

So you´re not going to use screw down crowns on your project?

hell no!

Currently I am all for the Monoflex crown, 2.0

But of course the design needs to pass modern testing to 200m.

 

[Hugger69]

hell no!

Currently I am all for the Monoflex crown, 2.0

But of course the design needs to pass modern testing to 200m.

Thats the spirit!

 

[martink]

Thats the spirit!

So the status is the following:

All parts apart from one are there, I am waiting for the central piece (the injection moulding part) to come in the demanded tolerances, and then the testing can begin.

I hope in 2 weeks time I know more.
And I can give a short update if this old concept still works today.
I am sure it will, but you never know.