All-White MK1 Sherpa Graph on C24

[Gopher]

Seemingly-correct MK1. Serial looks right.

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[mikehohmann]

Says Reserved already... did you get it?

 

[Gopher]

No, I merely requested a price because it is not listed. That is usually a bad sign and it is in this case. Too rich for my blood.

It should be available again.

 

[Joe_A]

I would take issue with the description of the state of the movement. The stampings are not sharp-edged; there is quite a bit of discoloration and a number of the slots on the slotted screws show signs of poor handling.

"Valjoux 72 movement with signed bridge in very good shape and clean (no rust or defects) it works and reset properly, has a good timekeeping and amplitude."

There is not much steel in the movement so there wouldn't be much rust. 273 degrees peak amplitude (I doubt whether lower numbers would be shown) is pretty good all things considered.

I'm not suggesting that it would not be desirable at "the right price," but the right price to me would be well below that of a Mark III in good condition.

I'd suggest the movement had a good bit of moisture inside for some time.

The dial?

 

[vintageanimation]

I'm still learning, but I would think the Mark lc would be more desirable than the Mark lll. Funny they are the two Sherpa Graphs that I own.

 

[Joe_A]

I'm still learning, but I would think the Mark lc would be more desirable than the Mark lll. Funny they are the two Sherpa Graphs that I own.

We are all still learning.

Generally speaking, yes, an early Sherpa Graph will be valued more than a Mark III in similar condition.

Many watches are advertised and many are sold, but it is the ones that are in very good condition that always sell when the price is at market for the period . . . and sell faster than those watches listed in poor to fair condition and whose sellers expect to get nearly the same price for a similar watch in good condiion.

I would grade the subject Ic as fair or below par. One man's opinion only.

Horses for courses.

All it takes is one person willing to pay a lot of money for a watch in poor condition to make my suggestions based on experience and observation look a bit silly.

 

[Gopher]

Well said, Joe. I agree with your assessment. The asking price offered to me was certainly nowhere near my right price. And I, like you, significantly devalue a piece for issues as you raise. This seller, like many these days and especially on C24, has an inflated view of its value.

 

[mgernhar]

Seemingly-correct MK1. Serial looks right.

Enicar Sherpa | Chrono24.com

Enicar Sherpa on Chrono24.com. New offers daily. In stock now. Save favorite watches & buy your dream watch.

www.chrono24.com

that looks like one that sold at auction about 2-3 years ago for 4500 euros, wonder what they are asking.

 

[mgernhar]

that looks like one that sold at auction about 2-3 years ago for 4500 euros, wonder what they are asking.

has anyone noticed lots of sherpa graphs on the market, prices are getting softer and nothing seems to be moving. Maybe canary in the coal mine of impending recession. i am seeing the same thing in other collectibles... and i probably have too many watches. I made the assumption this was a fairly liquid market....my mistake

 

[SteveHarris]

Things normally get slow around this time of year to be honest. Most of Europe are away on holiday around this time.

 

[mgernhar]

That doesn't increase that doesn't explain the increase in Supply there's watches coming out of the woodwork

 

[JimJupiter]

More people are aware of these watches and find information in the www when they google it. So probably less watches were thrown in the garbage.
Also collecting with an investment focus is never clever. Collector items are allways a volatile good. Ask the bunch of pocket watch collectors from the 90s
And keep in mind, the Enicar market is still a super small one. It's more a less an Enicar bubble with allways the same guys in it. The growth of this bubble is slow and small to my experience (btw as is the Heuer one,...they just started a decade earlier and the brand still exists, which makes it easier).

Fine for me if prices decrease, time to fill up the collection with the missing pieces

Nico

 

[Gopher]

that looks like one that sold at auction about 2-3 years ago for 4500 euros, wonder what they are asking.

Interesting. Seller is asking 3X that price, hence my point about it not being the right price given condition.

 

[Gopher]

More people are aware of these watches and find information in the www when they google it. So probably less watches were thrown in the garbage.
Also collecting with an investment focus is never clever. Collector items are allways a volatile good. Ask the bunch of pocket watch collectors from the 90s
And keep in mind, the Enicar market is still a super small one. It's more a less an Enicar bubble with allways the same guys in it. The growth of this bubble is slow and small to my experience (btw as is the Heuer one,...they just started a decade earlier and the brand still exists, which makes it easier).

Fine for me if prices decrease, time to fill up the collection with the missing pieces

Nico

Fait points, Nico, but I see nothing wrong with viewing these watches as an investment. All investments are speculative and vintage watches, especially an obscure brand like Enicar, are no different. That said, I agree they should be be viewed first on their collectibility and wearability, second on investment potential. With inflation spiking in the US, cash is the worst asset to hold here today.

I dislike when people collect nice vintage watches and merely lock them in a safe never to be seen (but I enjoy buying these safe queens!). They are made to wear (albeit with care)! I also like classic cars and feel the same about them.

 

[mikehohmann]

that looks like one that sold at auction about 2-3 years ago for 4500 euros, wonder what they are asking.

That, plus euro 10k more...

 

[SteveHarris]

That doesn't increase that doesn't explain the increase in Supply there's watches coming out of the woodwork

I wouldn't say that there's an increased supply? What are you basing that on? There's currently around 25 on C24 which is pretty steady with the number that's been available for the last 12 months. There hasn't been an uptick on eBay or any of the other channels as far as I can see either?

There's always new ones coming out of the woodwork and that will (hopefully) always be the case. Auction houses are also treating Enicar's seriously (finally) as well, which may explain a part of why you think there's an increase?

 

[Joe_A]

It seems to me that, when a watch sells for a relatively high price, - a watch that has been kept in really fine condition as one may see in the collection of Watchfred - Fred Mandelbaum - then other owners of the same reference watch in a poorer condition may think:

"Well my watch now must be worth at least 90% of what that watch sold for and so I'll put it up for sale at the higher end of the current range as well!"

But to me, when a watch in pristine condition sells for "x" a watch with issues may only be worth 50% of "x" or 60% of "x" and the valuation goes down from there.

The valuation should be on the low side when the odds are slim of finding the parts that are in poor shape.

Fine watches will generally sell even in a weak market whereas less than fine watches won't sell unless the seller finds that one guy who thinks the way he does.

What do we think of the seller's description of this watch:

Overall, the watch is in very good condition. The dial appears to be in excellent condition, showing a nicely faded tropical outer tachymeter scale.. Dial and hands retain original tritium luminous, that has aged to a beautiful tan colour. The watch case appears to be unpolished, very sharp. The watch was just serviced by our watchmaker, runs with a high amplitude and keeps accurate time. (+280; +5s/d). The watch comes from a collector in Germany. Altogether a very nice and rare, charming timepiece.

Here is my version:

"Overall, the watch is in fair condition. The dial is in reasonably good condition, but has the potential to look much better should an effort be made to polish the crystal. The outer tachymetre scale has been tropicalized and is in relatively poor condition especially from approximately the 4 o'clock position to approximately the 8 o'clock position. The red central chrono seconds hand has only a bit of paint missing in three spots. Paddle areas have rusted on the central minutes and hours hands, however original lume is complete though stained by a bit by the rust. The watch case appears to be unpolished with well-defined edges. The watch was just serviced by our watchmaker, runs with a reasonably high amplitude and keeps accurate time. (+280; +5s/d). The watch comes from a collector in Germany. Altogether a charming timepiece in fair condition."

The price is pegged at about 75% to 85% of the typical listing price of similar watch in excellent condition .

I don't think I am being at all unfair to this watch or the seller. I may err on the side of generosity.

Note: Movement looks to be in good condition and perhaps the seller "forgot" to show the case back.

Notice that the close-up photo of the face does not show the lower section which, to be fair, shows the outer ring in very poor condition.

Cheers,

Joe

 

[Gopher]

You are more than generous in your description, Joe. I can share from personal experience that this seller is a piece of work. Question him at all on the condition of his watches, which to his eye are all-original and mint, and he will berate you. The experts on this forum are more knowledgeable on Enicars.

I do not trust him and, therefore, will never do business with him regardless of how good a watch may look on his site or what he claims. Your mileage may vary.

 

[JimJupiter]

It seems to me that, when a watch sells for a relatively high price, - a watch that has been kept in really fine condition as one may see in the collection of Watchfred - Fred Mandelbaum - then other owners of the same reference watch in a poorer condition may think:

"Well my watch now must be worth at least 90% of what that watch sold for and so I'll put it up for sale at the higher end of the current range as well!"

But to me, when a watch in pristine condition sells for "x" a watch with issues may only be worth 50% of "x" or 60% of "x" and the valuation goes down from there.

The valuation should be on the low side when the odds are slim of finding the parts that are in poor shape.

Fine watches will generally sell even in a weak market whereas less than fine watches won't sell unless the seller finds that one guy who thinks the way he does.

What do we think of the seller's description of this watch:

View attachment 5360

View attachment 5361



Here is my version:

"Overall, the watch is in fair condition. The dial is in reasonably good condition, but has the potential to look much better should an effort be made to polish the crystal. The outer tachymetre scale has been tropicalized and is in relatively poor condition especially from approximately the 4 o'clock position to approximately the 8 o'clock position. The red central chrono seconds hand has only a bit of paint missing in three spots. Paddle areas have rusted on the central minutes and hours hands, however original lume is complete though stained by a bit by the rust. The watch case appears to be unpolished with well-defined edges. The watch was just serviced by our watchmaker, runs with a reasonably high amplitude and keeps accurate time. (+280; +5s/d). The watch comes from a collector in Germany. Altogether a charming timepiece in fair condition."

The price is pegged at about 75% to 85% of the typical listing price of similar watch in excellent condition .

I don't think I am being at all unfair to this watch or the seller. I may err on the side of generosity.

Note: Movement looks to be in good condition and perhaps the seller "forgot" to show the case back.

Notice that the close-up photo of the face does not show the lower section which, to be fair, shows the outer ring in very poor condition.

Cheers,

Joe

I can tell you the movement got the best service it could get . Thats my old watch and its interesting to see where it appeared again, exactly 5 months after I sold it Also, WTF happened to the crystal? looks like it was used intensivly in this short period, but buffing a crystal is a no brainer.
I agree with you on the bezel. For me this is the only downside. But since its not damaged, but "just" discolored, I think its a think of personal taste. I tried to match it with a strap in similar colors back then.



Ah and this is the caseback. No reason to not show it, serial is 617.494



Best Nico

 

[Joe_A]

I try to be a little gentle in my criticism as one never knows when one may be scuffing up someone else's shoes!

As in . . .

"That watch belonged to me late dad and I cried every day for a year after I was forced to sell it to catch up on my mortgage payments!"

That said, S-the-O shows inside and outside case back photos for most of his watches. It may be simply an oversight that he left off caseback photos this time . . . or else someone may have swapped the case back for another watch and put the wrong caseback on this one? I'm not accusing anyone of making such a change, but one needs to do due diligence.

The S-the-O photos result in it being unclear whether the dial has flaws or whether the crystal has simply been badly abused. In your photo, it is clear that the dial is in good shape.

It's being offered as a IIb when it is clearly a IIa.

On the same site, there is this watch listed as a Mark 3,5 whatever that is?!?!

Enicar Sherpa | Chrono24.com

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Do we agree that it is actually a IIb in pretty good shape and may be a fine watch for a collector if the S/N is correct? Like most other IIb watches I have seen, it has the later Valjoux 72 movement with mobile stud carrier.