A worthy Enicar Sherpa Graph Mark III

Joe_A

Moderator
Staff member
Enicaristi
Sherpa
If you wrote that a watch has an not original part, your opinion create a doubt in a potential buyer...

This is not fair in my opinion. Many collectors know the quality of my collection and they know how many important for me the condition of the watches. I saw in my life over 500 Enicar vintage watches and if a watch goes to my collection I think that it is 100% original.

I am only one guy with one guy's tentative opinion.

I remember an argument a couple years ago where some who know something about Gallet chronographs questioned whether the hours counter hand could be correct on a particular watch because the center disk diameter was larger than the seconds counter and the minutes counter. Later, it was discovered that all or nearly all MC-12 H watches have a larger diameter circular disk for the hours counter hand when the movement is an Excelsior park 40 or 40-68, but when the movement is a Valjoux 72, the diameters of the center disk on all three register hands are identical.

We live and learn.

I intend on being humble. My opinion can be changed but it is not changed yet. My opinion is subject to learning from others, especially someone who has a database consisting of 370 Graphs of various type or reference.

It is likely, but not certain, that, if there are other SG Mark III watches extant with seven-digit serial numbers, Nico may have a couple in his database. I hope he does not mind being put "on the spot" like this. ;)

Nico once saved me from keeping a "put together" Mark III with a S/N 1262347. The dealer I bought it from was very nice about it and returned my money, including adjusting in my favor for the change in exchange rate and paying shipping both ways. They later sold it at a discount through an auction at Bonhams.

There is difference here in that a high S/N such as 1262xxx can only be the case back of a Mark IV watch. The S/N of your watch is near the cusp of the changeover from the Mark III to Mark IV. Reference is the same.

Can you put up a photo of the inside case back?

I am going to assume that you are a fair-minded person. I am too.

Assuming the best of intentions is always a good starting point. You exposed the serial number of this watch in good faith and so I believe that you do not doubt what you say . . . you believe the case back to be original.

If someone were to purchase this watch from you, they would face the same question that is being raised here, assuming they exposed the serial number in a public forum.

Perhaps it is better to be discussed here rather than for a buyer to stumble across this thread afterward?

I don't see this as being unfair.
 

chronopassion68

New member
Sherpa
I am only one guy with one guy's tentative opinion.

I remember an argument a couple years ago where some who know something about Gallet chronographs questioned whether the hours counter hand could be correct on a particular watch because the center disk diameter was larger than the seconds counter and the minutes counter. Later, it was discovered that all or nearly all MC-12 H watches have a larger diameter circular disk for the hours counter hand when the movement is an Excelsior park 40 or 40-68, but when the movement is a Valjoux 72, the diameters of the center disk on all three register hands are identical.

We live and learn.

I intend on being humble. My opinion can be changed but it is not changed yet. My opinion is subject to learning from others, especially someone who has a database consisting of 370 Graphs of various type or reference.

It is likely, but not certain, that, if there are other SG Mark III watches extant with seven-digit serial numbers, Nico may have a couple in his database. I hope he does not mind being put "on the spot" like this. ;)

Nico once saved me from keeping a "put together" Mark III with a S/N 1262347. The dealer I bought it from was very nice about it and returned my money, including adjusting in my favor for the change in exchange rate and paying shipping both ways. They later sold it at a discount through an auction at Bonhams.

There is difference here in that a high S/N such as 1262xxx can only be the case back of a Mark IV watch. The S/N of your watch is near the cusp of the changeover from the Mark III to Mark IV. Reference is the same.

Can you put up a photo of the inside case back?

I am going to assume that you are a fair-minded person. I am too.

Assuming the best of intentions is always a good starting point. You exposed the serial number of this watch in good faith and so I believe that you do not doubt what you say . . . you believe the case back to be original.

If someone were to purchase this watch from you, they would face the same question that is being raised here, assuming they exposed the serial number in a public forum.

Perhaps it is better to be discussed here rather than for a buyer to stumble across this thread afterward?

I don't see this as being unfair.

Do you know my collector history? Do you know how many Enicar vintage watches I have in my collection? Do you know my history as seller?

Like Nico, I receive everyday requests for expertise on Enicar Sherpa Graph, Jet Graph or Aqua Graph.

I'm one of the founder of the Enicar Sherpa International Club on Facebook and my reputation is well know.

I believe that my experience and my opinion are enough for a valuation about Sherpa Graph. It's my opinion.

Nico knows me very well. Ask him about me.

For me Enicar watches is a passion, I don't like this kind of conversation. For this reason, this is my last message in this blog.

Ciao
 

Joe_A

Moderator
Staff member
Enicaristi
Sherpa
The hour and minute hands are too short. It should not be the hour and minute hands of GRAPH!

Well spotted.

I was so focused on the S/N of the case back that I did not notice the short M/H hands with the longer extensions past the paddles.

So a watch made up of genuine parts.

Just not the right ones in every case.
 

JimJupiter

Moderator
Staff member
Enicaristi
Sherpa
Claudio, please calm down. No one is questioning your expertise, but I also think this watch has some issues.

I. there are no paddle style watches in the serial beginning with 1.030.xxx known to this today, or I havnt seen them yet (17 watches so far in my list in this batch). This range is the start of the MK IV range cause of the change of the hand styling.

II. @wugod is right. This watch has to short hands, that are used on a Garnix, but not on a Graph.

Please take three deep breaths, make a step back and have another objective view on your watch.

Here you can see a pic of number 1.030.897, a watch that is just one number apart from yours and consistent with all the other seen MK IVs in this range:
F3F4F46A-02BF-41F3-A170-A8C36F1B134B.jpeg

Best Nico
 

chronopassion68

New member
Sherpa
Claudio, please calm down. No one is questioning your expertise, but I also think this watch has some issues.

I. there are no paddle style watches in the serial beginning with 1.030.xxx known to this today, or I havnt seen them yet (17 watches so far in my list in this batch). This range is the start of the MK IV range cause of the change of the hand styling.

II. @wugod is right. This watch has to short hands, that are used on a Garnix, but not on a Graph.

Please take three deep breaths, make a step back and have another objective view on your watch.

Here you can see a pic of number 1.030.897, a watch that is just one number apart from yours and consistent with all the other seen MK IVs in this range:
View attachment 3095

Best Nico

Nico, you had same issue in the past with GVM, remember? From my side, I always keep calm and I try to understand a different point of view. You know me and you know well the quality and quantity of my Enicar collection. I had in my hands many watches from Enicar.

I think that it so dangerous give an opinion about a brand that not more exists. No one archive, no one official book, but only 17 watches in a list... Please, it's not a benchmark and it's not a rule. Do we have an official source from Enicar about serial number range? No. Can you tell with 100% of certainty that there aren't mark 3 with 1030xxx of serial? No. Now we have a proof that there is one in the world. Remember your skeletor hands for Mark 1? Same story, different approach. Mmmm

The case of a mark 4 is a little bit different that a case of a mark 3... For me is not so simple use a backcase mark 3 on a mark 4 case. Try it.

About the hands, I agree, probably hands has been change in a past service. Don't forget that we speak about watches with over 50 years...

My collection could be a resource for our community, but seems that it is a problem... Open your mind guys, embrace a finding, not destroy all things.

But Nico this is your blog and the rules are yours.

Good luck. With your certainties. I'm backing to study and use my watches.

The only thing that matter is our passion. The rest is a personal view. Ciao
 

JimJupiter

Moderator
Staff member
Enicaristi
Sherpa
Hey Claudio,

the 17 watches are just from the serial batch we are talking about. The List consists 371 watches now. As you know, I respect you and we both made wonderful discoveries. I am also the last one, who is not open for a good conversation and discussion. This is how we learn. For the moment, I am just saying that your watch is not consistent with the others in this batch. Also keep in mind, the MK1a-MKIV classification was just my personal one, based on what GVM did before me.

You also made a good point, I havnt had a look that much before. If you know differences in the cases, I think everyone here is happy to learn!

Last remark. This isnt my blog ;) This is an open forum for everyone, a place to show stuff and more important, discuss stuff. It was founded by Steve, Joe and I are just moderators who help him. Until now we had great talks in a very nice atmosphere here and I think no one here wants to change that. No one here is the guardian of the truth. At least, I wont say this from me. I just collect information and try to connect the dots, based on my knowledge and view. If someone has a good argument, I am the last who wont change his mind. Again, this is how we learn! :)

I would appreciate if you stay in this place and take place in the several conversation. I guess it would be a benefit for all sides, since the story of Enicar watches isnt completly talked yet.

Bro-fist mate, take it easy :) its just watches
 

Joe_A

Moderator
Staff member
Enicaristi
Sherpa
I too would be pleased to see Claudio remain here and participate in our discussions.

When I have a chance - not soon, but one day - I will see whether my 1308 BaNCH case back fits my Sherpa Graph MK III and whether my 072-02-01 Seapearl case back fits my late (June, 1962) Mark I watch.

I have to be in the mood to try this though ;)

Cheers,

Joe
 

hurmen

Member
Enicaristi
Sherpa
I know Claudio as a long time passionate Enicar afficionado. But he kind of hijacked this thread about another watch with “Hi gentlemen, this is for sale” promoting his merchandise.
Not the best start in my opinion….

But I’d like this forum to be the place where all Enicar enthousiasts can educate one another.
Let’s all be friends!
 
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